- Page 12, 4th paragraph- Charlie sees his sisters future with her useless boyfriend.
- Page 51, 4th paragraph- Charlie wants his brother's college experience to contain cocoa, rain, and unconventional beauty.
- Page 87, 5th paragraph- Charlie discusses whether or not his cousin has a "chance" in life.
- Page 92, 3rd paragraoh- Charlie talks about what his Aunt Helen's life might be like if she lived.
There are even more examples of Charlie dreaming for other people later in the novel. However, a far as his own future, I have only seen him mention it twice in the first two sections. On page 29 when he pretends to be a college student, but makes ridiculous and overexagerrated statements and on page 47 when he states he might want to be a writer that interviews other people about their lives.
Charlie never seems to mention in a serious manner what he wants for himself, for his own future. I want your opinions, do you think Charlie fears his future, doesn't see himself as having a future, or is just the ultimate wallflower--that lacks ambition for himself?
Do you guys have any answers for me? Also, do you think that this would be a good question to pose to the class, and if not what question do you think our group should ask?
In my defense, I am very tired but feel that I should leave something here anyway.
ReplyDeleteI see Charlie less as a wallflower as of yet. The word 'wallflower' to me connotes someone who is happy with their meager lot, and watches the world go by without ever becoming too involved.
At this point, Charlie is a jellyfish. He just floats along, taking whatever brownies he is handed.
So my Discussion Question is: Why?
This is not directed at the author (for once! yay!) but at the character. When will he do something? Or at least think about doing something in a meaningful sense? I realize that this is what the book is about, but David Copperfield and Candide are about this too (despite the many ways Voltaire finds to butcher Leibniz), and they get going quickly. Here, Charlie only does three thing: fell sad, feel infinite (a form of sad?) and have people close to him die.
Is it because (according to Randy Newman) "Short People Got No Reason to Live?"
Be careful, or we'll end up with "Waiting for Godot."
Good night.
Maybe you figure out why later in the novel. ;)
ReplyDeleteBy the end there's more to Mr. Charlie than you realize at first. It was hard for me to do a discussion question from the point of view of the first two parts, once I read the whole novel. When we get down to it, he's afraid of life and it's because there's so much more going on inside this kid than we know.
By the way, I'm not sure "Why?" will fly as the discussion question we present to the class. It's much too efficient and succinct.
Okay, I've read it, and I'm ready to revise my question.
ReplyDelete"Didn't Camus write this in 1942?"
I know Chbosky references it a few times (I don't remember Meursault being so sad, however; he was just a, a**hole). And I even think that the book could be read as a pastiche of the books that Charlie reads. What lifts it above pure pastiche is that the writing is good enough that I can say "the books that Charlie reads" and not "the books the author mentions."
But it really is Thoreau's premise to arrive at Rand's conclusion via Camus' storyline. Except Charlie doesn't kill anyone. But he makes a good go at himself, if you know what I mean.
As for the actual plot points, it's too bad that Alice is a minor character, and that the persons of Bob, Carol, and Ted are missing entirely.
Once again, I'm not sure how your question will fly. If you're trying to amuse me with your dry, cynical poking at the literature-- it's working. =D
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid though, that for the first time in my life, I'm not as well read as the person I'm talking to. It's very refreshing.
And as for Bob and the rest of them, they weren't important to Charlie. Of course they were minor characters. Though Bob was just too great, with his bubbles.
I was a wallflower in elementary school and most of high school. I had a very small circle of friends who I knew very well (And for a long, long time), and I 'knew' other people, but I stayed where I was comfortable at socially. I went to one dance in the 7th grade, and senior prom. Both were monumental wastes of time and money. I can't dance. Can't and won't try.
ReplyDeleteCharlie dreams of other people because he's so observant. The longer you spend analyzing someone, the more you start to wonder what they're like when they're alone, what they're thinking about, and where they'll end up. He can't observe himself, so he had no personal dreams. Charlie is also a very sensitive kid, and worries about the people he's become attached to. After all, he's riding shotgun through life with them for now.
I'm not totally sure about Charlie, but I never reached out or tried too many new things because I didn't know how. I never asked a girl out because I had no idea how to act, never played sports because I thought I was no good, and I didn't know what I was going to be when I grew up because I had no experience. I sure drew and wrote a lot, though, much like Charlie and his reading. We both lacked the confidence to step out on our own because we saw ourselves as not being ready, not knowing enough yet. So we observed. We learned things and stored them away in our heads.
This may explain why he's so enthralled with the books that Bill gives him. I have a sneaking suspicion that Bill is an ex-wallflower, very much like Charlie, and now has the literary knowledge to help his student become more socialized and 'normal' by selecting books with situations and lessons he needs.
I'm pleased with your question, it certainly got me thinking.
Yeah, I can relate to the whole wallflower situation too. Middle school was a lonely time for me, trying to figure myself out.
ReplyDeleteYou have a great perspective on Charlie's reason for dreaming about other people's live. While I'm not sure if I totally agree, you've got some definite points. I still think there's an element of fear to Charlie's wallflower status. Look at how mean people in his family are, and his Aunt Helen, the only nice one, doesn't end up being the kind of saint he makes her out to be in the beginning. You learn what to expect from other people by interacting with your family when you are a child. Charlie has no reason to expect anything good coming from the people around him.
Your observation about Bill is probably pretty accurate-- make sure to step up and voice it on Friday during discussion! I was impressed with the repetoire of books he had Charlie read, also slightly jealous. I wish I had had an English teacher like that!
Thank you. Glad to have been a good discussion starter!
you two are hilarious........just throwing that out there.
ReplyDeleteanyhow i like it, not really sure about my own question though....
To answer yours K, I don't think he sees himself at all. That's his problem in my opinion. He is just a jellyfish, he has people tell him what to do all the time and had no will to do anything on his own. So yes he is the ultimate wallflower, like Kelso is the king. sorry watching 70's show while doing this. But it is a great question to ask
I am not to be outdone (I should probably go eat after writing tonight's blog post; it's a doozy). I have spent my life on the fringes of society, and it wasn't until last year that I finally decided that it was okay to have friends (figuratively, of course).
ReplyDeleteA lot of why I had so few real friends was a deep and abject fear of doing things wrong. Which means that I was worse off than if I hadn't thought about it at all. So, while I was a nice enough kid when alone or with my family, with other people I became an annoying little snot. A snot who constantly said the wrong thing. (Have you ever said something that stops a conversation dead in its tracks? I used to do that several times every day, until I learned to just shut up and not say anything at all, which is still my guiding principal in life.)
I also used to just sit with the front door open and "listen to the wind" (how I explained it to my mom). I was loving this morning, especially crossing the bridge over Stadium Way (although the windspeed could have been a little higher for my taste). There's nothing quite like a good windstorm.
Food time!
Glad I can make you laugh, David. :) And I'm also glad you liked my question.
ReplyDeleteReally, Kelso?
I much prefer Ashton in "The Guardian".
HOO RAH!
The wind, huh? I was raised in the Tri-cities and I hate the wind. Too much drifting sand and too many giant tumbleweed piles.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I've always been a book girl through and through. I was reading at a "college level" by the time I got done with elementary school. Books were so much more interesting than real people and I hated real life with a passion. It got so bad for a while that I started confusing literature with reality in small ways.
I failed every grade in middle school, even though I was in advanced courses (they put me in basic algebra in the sixth grade D= ), because I read rather than doing my work.
I'm a much healthier and happier person now. Even though it seems like I never have enough time to read as much as I'd like to. But hey-- I've got friends, so it's worth it.
Hey guys, if you have a question you seriously want to pose to the class tomorrow, let it be known.
ReplyDeleteOtherwise, I'm printing this baby off.